Forum: 

Then and Now

Valerian's picture
Submitted by Valerian on

I've been reading a post on a LiveJournal community called "FogeyGoff" (hee hee) which is on a very intriguing theme, and I'd love to hear what BC Goths have to say about it, since the discussion so far has leaned towards eastern Canada.  It's a long post with a lot of comments, but if you have time I recommend reading it all.  The gist of it is what Goth once was, what it has become, and how people are having difficulties with a changing subculture.  Since there's a wide age group on this forum I though this would be a great place to discuss our take on it.

Part of the post:

"Goth, back in the 80s, had a decadence, a hedonism to it that is missing today. The goth subculture embraced the darker side of life, we ENJOYED the balance of both life and death, we CELEBRATED our individuality together. There was a romance, a victorian feel to the scene. Sure, black tshirts [usually for a goth band] and jeans were the daytime 'uniform' but at night, we shone... Goths, in the 80s, mostly worked. The money was pretty good, and we spent it. It was the start of the community so there was a lot of DIY, and we did. We created. We built. We made.

Now... now Goth still rebels, but it's a loud dissonant voice. It expresses individuality through insistence, that you WILL play my music in a public venue or else I'll howl that you are restraining my individual rights. There is no respect, alienation has turned to xenophobia. The romance is gone... Goth then was making love and Goth now is just fucking...

Goth, who spurned the mainstream and raised the flag of individuality, has been bought. Movies and books, Hot Topic and cartoons... Reznor and Manson took Goth music into radio play and top40 club play, and then didn't follow up. And other bands looked at the open door and didn't step forward. Before them it was the Cure, Sisters of Mercy and Adam Ant... yes, Adam Ant. They all brought Goth closer to the 'mainstream' and no one followed up. Instead, we let mass media and current marketers do the job, cheapening the experience because we weren't in control.

And the 'kids'... the noobgoths, the new wearers of black don't have a sense of history. They don't see our roots, where we came from. They see what they're sold. This is part their fault for jumping in without looking for rocks at the bottom of the lake [but youth is oft that way] and partly our fault for not exposing them, introducing them, showing them. "

"At the very least, the models at Fallen II did more than walk out and walk off.  Regular models are *way* too boring... but our models some carried firebrands, some mimed little dramas, some danced, etc. "

I think our fashion shows excel at presentation, and I more than applaud the effort and imagination that goes into such organization. If anything, the presentation seems to be evolving steadily faster than the fashion. Every show seems to get more and more elaborate and playful and most importantly, there is a continuation of the more sucessful experiments which leads to a history, which in turn leads to a progression of the presentation.

As far as the clothing goes though, it has been done to death, and while I'm not looking for a complete abandonment of popular construct, I would like to see "variations on the variations" to the point where the origin is lost. 

I've actually been kicking myself for missing the last paradise show at wesley's hall, so ya, I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for Cool Cat. Thanks for the heads up. ;)

Fashion, being a large part of the Goth scene, is a good place to focus an example.

"The last fashion show I went to was fallen II and while there were quite a few new experimentations, the majority of it was bastardized corsets and medieval armour."

At the very least, the models at Fallen II did more than walk out and walk off.  Regular models are *way* too boring... but our models some carried firebrands, some mimed little dramas, some danced, etc.  Clothing is clothing though, and it's been around a long time.  How can someone "invent" a piece of clothing that's never been done before?  Do you mean a variation such as say, in Elizabethan times: they wore lace ruffs around their necks, now we wear spiked dog collars?  I think you are referring to the amount of repetition one sees - your use of the corset is a good example.  Plain black satin corset, then plain red satin corset, then striped satin corset - all the same shape.  *YAWN*  However, Goths *like* corsets and the things corsets are designed to do - so naturally you're going to see lots of them at a fashion show.  Maybe you are referring more to the fact that there aren't a lot of people experimenting with the *look* of them: for example, one made entirely out of strips of electrical tubing held together by cling-wrap?  Or perhaps less avante garde: alternating panels of velvet and Persian rug material, with fringe along the top that has little skull beads every four or five strands?

I think there's been a lot of experimentation in Gothic art and fashion overall (compared to 10 years ago, holy crap the spectrum is amazing now), although on a day-to-day basis it's the same thing over and over again.  And even so, the mundane can be made to be exciting again - at the Paradise shows, sure most of the fashions we've seen before, but the choreography, the bizarre live music and off-beat spoken word, the all-over-body painting and *art exhibit* that went on just off-stage was a real breath of fresh air, and made the more routine items seem a bit more appealing.

I think though, that you are asking for the more avante garde approach, where there are no rules, and in fact, an abandonment of popular construct.  If so, yes, I agree that we need more of it - more now than in the earlier days of Goth, if only because now it's all been done to death (whereas in the 80's *everything* was avante garde as far as Goth was concerned).  In the meantime, I recommend keeping an eye out for Cool Cat Productions, the people who put on the Paradise shows.  They have a good mandate to bring back art into music, fashion and dance...and although it's not advertised as Goth, enough elements of what they do and the people who they choose to collaborate with  make it very Gothy.  The only other thing you can do is to get involved, and put yer money where yer mouth is.

;)

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Art of Adornment ~ Victorian Gothic Jewelry & Accessories

"fearless experimentation"

I like that phrase.  Although I'm not quite sure I know what you mean.  Do you mean collaborating on projects that aren't typical to the scene?  Or perhaps trying out something different within the confines of an existing event/project? 

A little bit of both I suppose. This might come across as a little convoluted but try to bare with me.

Instead of taking a theme and having 100 variations on it, I would take a theme and have 1 variation on it, and then a variation on the variation and a variation on that variation and so forth. Allowing the culture of the scene to move where ever it may, almost haphazardly.  Maybe I 've been out of the loop for too long and things really have become more progressive I don't know. The last fashion show I went to was fallen II and while there were quite a few new experimentations, the majority of it was bastardized corsets and medieval armour. I'd really like to see the artists run with the variations more, instead of returning to the fashion archetypes everytime.

Let me try to clarify with an example:

Let's pretend that the corset is an archetypal article of clothing  for the scene.

Now, let's say, as artists we play with the theme and put spikes all around the corset and rename the creation a "spikorset" (absurd I know, but I really can't think of a better word at the moment).

Here's the crux of the matter.

Instead of taking the "spikorset" and elevating to the rank of an archetypal article of clothing, we revert back to the original corset and create more variations on that. Thus the fashion of the scene doesn't progress from the experiments of the designers, it recycles variations from the historical articles of clothing and nothing authentic is ever derived from the scene itself.   

Now, this isn't to say that there is no progress in the scene. There is to a degree, but from what I've observed, this progress has been inspired by outside influences, and not from the experimentations of our resident artists. So in a sense, our little subculture is nothing more than a pastiche of historical art, slightly modified to achieve a desired aesthetic, without any claim to authenticity. Unless you consider a pvc corset to be an "authentic" creation...

...I guess it's debatable.

"fearless experimentation"

I like that phrase.  Although I'm not quite sure I know what you mean.  Do you mean collaborating on projects that aren't typical to the scene?  Or perhaps trying out something different within the confines of an existing event/project?  

"without adding the collage of individual talents of those that put it together"

Ever been to one of Sychochik's "Gothique Art" Shows?  Or the "Paradise" shows?   Ever seen any Goth fashion shows, here and in other cities?  You'd be amazed how differently everyone works, in different mediums, and how even "un-Goth" some work appears.   You can't tell me that what everyone is doing is market-driven formula.  Yes, some of it *is* marketed a certain way simply because it's the only way they can get anyone to buy it (if you want to sell a hamburger you don't write "insect repellant" on the wrapper) or they haven't got an imaginitive bone in their body.  Maybe you've been reading too many glossy magazines or surfing too many Goth Babe sites.  Or maybe I'm not getting a clear enough message from you on what you mean...?  Am I missing the point entirely?

??)

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Art of Adornment ~ Victorian Gothic Jewelry & Accessories

But I think the sheer commonality, and even the 'competition' that tends to arise from it, is.

I agree. The younger generation has lost that sense of individual aesthetic. Sure everyone still networks, we still manage to get parties, music projects, fashion shows going, and yes, on a larger scale, Convergence, but at least from what I've seen, all these projects recreate an aesthetic, without adding the collage of individual talents of those that put it together. I think there was a "marketability" mentality that crept into the scene in the late 90's that changed the way we contribute to projects. Everyone knows how to pose on their album covers to "fit" the aesthetic, photographers seem to know which lenses and filters look the most "professional", and the fashion designers have become privy to "what goths like". There isn't very much experimentation anymore. The romantic notions of a progressive autonomous fringe, has been replaced by the hard industrial logic of culture as a commodity. We don't play together anymore, we work together. We don't party, we organize. We don't howl and celebrate, we perform and pose. We don't make love, we fuck.   

When I speak of a scene renaissance, what I mean is fearless experimentation. A celebration of what makes our talents "unique" not "professional". Essentially, getting the younger generation to be inspired, and want to influence the local culture again, and stop trying to whore and market themselves to a media laden parent culture that will throw them away when there done consuming.

I really think this is the dividing mentality between then and now, we've simply forgotten to live like no ones watching. Constantly trying to keep the "goth" brand name intact.

Getting artists to design artwork for bands. Getting bands to write soundtracks for fashion shows, Getting fashion designers to cloth our dj's for the next calender photo shoot ( which should be shot by our very talented local photographers) ...you get the point.

That already happens, mainly because as artists we're too broke to afford to get someone outside our circle to get the job done.  I get my Goth photographer friends to photograph my artwork, for instance.  Local musicians provide background music for fashion shows (sometimes even live), and local Goths model the clothes made by local designers.  I've certainly noticed this, maybe others ignore it or just aren't informed.  Ever been to a Convergence?  So far this yearly event is a kind of pinnacle in the realm of Goths grouping together in the name of art, at least in North America.  I don't think networking is the problem.  But I think the sheer commonality, and even the 'competition' that tends to arise from it, is.  So many people all trying to get a piece of the same pie, and it's all been done to death.  Heh, pardon the pun.

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Art of Adornment ~ Victorian Gothic Jewelry & Accessories

"A culture is in its finest flower before it begins to analyze itself." - Alfred North Whitehead.

It seems to me in the 80's eveyone felt like they had the power to define the scene through their personal creations, in the 90's eveyone was celebrating the creation and stopped creating, and now at the turn of the century, everyone just bitches about how expensive, inaccurate and unsatisfying all the creations have become.

It's just my perception of things, but it seems to me that what really needs to happen is another scene renaissance, and I'm not just talking about isolated "do it yourself" projects, I'm talking about networking. Getting every last artist in this scene with even a speck of talent to get together and contribute to different projects. Getting artists to design artwork for bands. Getting bands to write soundtracks for fashion shows, Getting fashion designers to cloth our dj's for the next calender photo shoot ( which should be shot by our very talented local photographers) ...you get the point.

Once we all stop thinking about our talents as commodities and start thinking about them as tools to directly enhance the community we live in then the shift can begin. Everyone can stop worrying about how "professional" there skills appear and just do it.

Creating and playing together makes for a much more genuine feeling of community(and belonging) than say, a group outing to hot topic or buying the latest Puppy cd. All the kindergoths were raised to believe that if you want something you have to work for money so that you can buy it. I think the kids have very little concept of  "creating" cause everything they make seems second best to what they could buy.  

meh. I'm just throwing my copper into the circle, maybe at some point we can buy a good idea.

    

~roy

My point of view may come across as a bit mixed.  Sure, I frequently lament days when things were different - I don't know if they were "better" per se,  but they were different, and I think they were much more 'exciting' for the newcomer.  There was a greater deal of risk involved (getting your arse kicked for looking freaky at any moment was a reality) and creative - there weren't many stores that sold "punk" clothing so you had to make it yourself.  Then we were making the scene up as we went along because it hadn't been around that long.

But for me, I like being able to buy cool things from alternative-style clothing shops.  I like not paying premium prices for music because nowadays things get distributed locally (I remember buying import records for $25 at a time when records were on average $9.99).  I like going to the 7-11 for milk knowing I won't get the crap kicked out of me or have things thrown at me, and I like going to clubs and hanging out with over 200 like-minded people.  If given the choice, I'd much rather live in a world of dark, expresssive people than not.  But by the same token, it's harder to "compete" and get ahead in this subculture, because of its success.  Ask any new band starting up if they don't get accused of "sounding just like X", or any fashionable girl if she's  saved up for 3 months to buy a certain dress, only to go out and see 3 others wearing the same thing, or any artist who spends years developing a style only to discover it's already being done by 1000 other kids on DeviantART.com ...

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Art of Adornment ~ Victorian Gothic Jewelry & Accessories

I have always found discussions like this quite interesting, as the more one challenges the ideals and intentions of a "scene" or "movement", the more contradictory it all seems.

My personal view on it (and I wouldn't force this opinion on anyone) is that something can't be gained without giving something else away.  Certainly an "elder goth" can look at today's scene and lament about the state of it -- perhaps things were really "better" at one point, with a small collection of like-minded individuals.

Having said that, I do believe that being part of the "goth scene" is not about maintaining exclusive rights to be a member, but to champion individuality.  In successfully doing so, others will be attracted to -- and become a part of -- the movement... some due to similar ideological beliefs, and others simply because it's "cool".

In the end, whatever the reasons people are attracted to the "goth scene" (and I would guess there are many varied reasons), it can't be ALL bad.  Growing (and gaining in acceptance) sometimes means giving away some idealistic notions... in the end I simply believe you can't be part of something "different", only to expect it to remain static despite new and varied influences.