"At the very least, the models at Fallen II did more than walk out and walk off.  Regular models are *way* too boring... but our models some carried firebrands, some mimed little dramas, some danced, etc. "

I think our fashion shows excel at presentation, and I more than applaud the effort and imagination that goes into such organization. If anything, the presentation seems to be evolving steadily faster than the fashion. Every show seems to get more and more elaborate and playful and most importantly, there is a continuation of the more sucessful experiments which leads to a history, which in turn leads to a progression of the presentation.

As far as the clothing goes though, it has been done to death, and while I'm not looking for a complete abandonment of popular construct, I would like to see "variations on the variations" to the point where the origin is lost. 

I've actually been kicking myself for missing the last paradise show at wesley's hall, so ya, I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for Cool Cat. Thanks for the heads up. ;)

"fearless experimentation"

I like that phrase.  Although I'm not quite sure I know what you mean.  Do you mean collaborating on projects that aren't typical to the scene?  Or perhaps trying out something different within the confines of an existing event/project? 

A little bit of both I suppose. This might come across as a little convoluted but try to bare with me.

Instead of taking a theme and having 100 variations on it, I would take a theme and have 1 variation on it, and then a variation on the variation and a variation on that variation and so forth. Allowing the culture of the scene to move where ever it may, almost haphazardly.  Maybe I 've been out of the loop for too long and things really have become more progressive I don't know. The last fashion show I went to was fallen II and while there were quite a few new experimentations, the majority of it was bastardized corsets and medieval armour. I'd really like to see the artists run with the variations more, instead of returning to the fashion archetypes everytime.

Let me try to clarify with an example:

Let's pretend that the corset is an archetypal article of clothing  for the scene.

Now, let's say, as artists we play with the theme and put spikes all around the corset and rename the creation a "spikorset" (absurd I know, but I really can't think of a better word at the moment).

Here's the crux of the matter.

Instead of taking the "spikorset" and elevating to the rank of an archetypal article of clothing, we revert back to the original corset and create more variations on that. Thus the fashion of the scene doesn't progress from the experiments of the designers, it recycles variations from the historical articles of clothing and nothing authentic is ever derived from the scene itself.   

Now, this isn't to say that there is no progress in the scene. There is to a degree, but from what I've observed, this progress has been inspired by outside influences, and not from the experimentations of our resident artists. So in a sense, our little subculture is nothing more than a pastiche of historical art, slightly modified to achieve a desired aesthetic, without any claim to authenticity. Unless you consider a pvc corset to be an "authentic" creation...

...I guess it's debatable.

But I think the sheer commonality, and even the 'competition' that tends to arise from it, is.

I agree. The younger generation has lost that sense of individual aesthetic. Sure everyone still networks, we still manage to get parties, music projects, fashion shows going, and yes, on a larger scale, Convergence, but at least from what I've seen, all these projects recreate an aesthetic, without adding the collage of individual talents of those that put it together. I think there was a "marketability" mentality that crept into the scene in the late 90's that changed the way we contribute to projects. Everyone knows how to pose on their album covers to "fit" the aesthetic, photographers seem to know which lenses and filters look the most "professional", and the fashion designers have become privy to "what goths like". There isn't very much experimentation anymore. The romantic notions of a progressive autonomous fringe, has been replaced by the hard industrial logic of culture as a commodity. We don't play together anymore, we work together. We don't party, we organize. We don't howl and celebrate, we perform and pose. We don't make love, we fuck.   

When I speak of a scene renaissance, what I mean is fearless experimentation. A celebration of what makes our talents "unique" not "professional". Essentially, getting the younger generation to be inspired, and want to influence the local culture again, and stop trying to whore and market themselves to a media laden parent culture that will throw them away when there done consuming.

I really think this is the dividing mentality between then and now, we've simply forgotten to live like no ones watching. Constantly trying to keep the "goth" brand name intact.

"A culture is in its finest flower before it begins to analyze itself." - Alfred North Whitehead.

It seems to me in the 80's eveyone felt like they had the power to define the scene through their personal creations, in the 90's eveyone was celebrating the creation and stopped creating, and now at the turn of the century, everyone just bitches about how expensive, inaccurate and unsatisfying all the creations have become.

It's just my perception of things, but it seems to me that what really needs to happen is another scene renaissance, and I'm not just talking about isolated "do it yourself" projects, I'm talking about networking. Getting every last artist in this scene with even a speck of talent to get together and contribute to different projects. Getting artists to design artwork for bands. Getting bands to write soundtracks for fashion shows, Getting fashion designers to cloth our dj's for the next calender photo shoot ( which should be shot by our very talented local photographers) ...you get the point.

Once we all stop thinking about our talents as commodities and start thinking about them as tools to directly enhance the community we live in then the shift can begin. Everyone can stop worrying about how "professional" there skills appear and just do it.

Creating and playing together makes for a much more genuine feeling of community(and belonging) than say, a group outing to hot topic or buying the latest Puppy cd. All the kindergoths were raised to believe that if you want something you have to work for money so that you can buy it. I think the kids have very little concept of  "creating" cause everything they make seems second best to what they could buy.  

meh. I'm just throwing my copper into the circle, maybe at some point we can buy a good idea.

~roy

I have always found discussions like this quite interesting, as the more one challenges the ideals and intentions of a "scene" or "movement", the more contradictory it all seems.

My personal view on it (and I wouldn't force this opinion on anyone) is that something can't be gained without giving something else away.  Certainly an "elder goth" can look at today's scene and lament about the state of it -- perhaps things were really "better" at one point, with a small collection of like-minded individuals.

Having said that, I do believe that being part of the "goth scene" is not about maintaining exclusive rights to be a member, but to champion individuality.  In successfully doing so, others will be attracted to -- and become a part of -- the movement... some due to similar ideological beliefs, and others simply because it's "cool".

In the end, whatever the reasons people are attracted to the "goth scene" (and I would guess there are many varied reasons), it can't be ALL bad.  Growing (and gaining in acceptance) sometimes means giving away some idealistic notions... in the end I simply believe you can't be part of something "different", only to expect it to remain static despite new and varied influences.